Curse

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 25, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

jdwoody: first of all, my post was directed at more than 1 person talking about Runners. Sekkira was the first to complain about it, at length I may add, in this thread. You also brought it up, saying that runners ruin the game 1000x more than the 105/55 monks. My point was that discussing runners, while perhaps something worth discussion, should not be done in this thread. It is not relevant to this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

ArenaNet hasn't said anything against farmers, but in fact endorsed them if they feel they want to farm. However, they have responded to banning accounts over botting. Right there is how you can support farming but condone botting, ArenaNet does it, so how is it not possible?

First off, ArenaNet has attempted to curb farming pretty dramatically in the past, only to reneg on the effort due to public outcry. It would be stretching the truth to say they "support" farming; they don't, they just realized that people want to do it, and what they DO is support their audience as best they can. Their audience just happens to want to farm a lot ^_^
Also, "condone" means "excuse" or "allow," so you might want to reword the sentence. I stared at it for a bit before I realized what you were trying to say.

Also, the word "exploit" can mean several things. One is taking advantage of a game glitch (something ANet does not like). Another is taking advantage of a powerful build, such as the 105/55 monk. It's a question of how powerful this build is that determines whether ANet will continue to allow it or not. They've nerfed builds in the past; there's plenty of precedent.

So, to say, "if this is really an exploit, how come I haven't been banned?" is simply you misunderstanding someone's use of language. You're not being witty or anything.

Silmor · Aug 25, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

I'd just like to note that I don't think anyone claims people should be banned over abusing the 55/105 monk, and bringing this issue into these discussions is just pointless fear-mongering. The fact that nobody has been banned (and won't be banned) over this however doesn't tell us this was what ArenaNet intended. I guess I just still have the beta-tester attitude - if I see something I feel is broken, I report it on the forums and to ArenaNet, I don't milk it for what it's worth until I'm forced to stop.

The people who keep repeating that ArenaNet intended for this build to exist, pointing at the 1 energy depletion at 17 protection prayers and the existence of the -50 health focus as evidence to support this, conveniently seem to neglect the fact that ArenaNet rebalanced skills before, which proves that not everything they released is working out as they forsaw, and there could very well still be undesireable combos and situations present. In the end the answer lies with ArenaNet - we may possibly see this issue addressed this weekend, and that will reveal their opinion on this build.

I don't think people should linger too long on the word 'exploit'. Check the dictionary for it, there are two sides to the term, I personally use it in the not-so-negative way (e.g. a farmer exploits his lands doesn't mean he's leaving them bare behind). If the implications of the words 'exploit' and 'abuse' bother you, replace them in your mind with 'use' and address the actual message instead of just being upset about the use of those words.

I'd also like to see all the pro- and contra-arguments on this issue merged into one big thread, instead of people starting new threads over and over again so they can ignore the arguments made in previous ones.

Santanus_Perro · Aug 25, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

You all are whining about absolutely nothing. We have a war, famine, disease and you guys are crying about a well thought out build based on the skills available. I say kudos to the guy who thought this build up. If you don't want to farm, then don't. If you do, then go right ahead. Stop whining and moaning over unimportant issues for pete's sake.

TheCrusader · Aug 25, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

The only problem I see is that people who play PvE monks have to buy Superior runes for high prices.

That in no way is fair. I havent farmed yet, but if I want to get a superior rune for my monk and be able to buy the droknars armor, and get better items, dye, etc I am going to have to.

noblepaladin · Aug 25, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

The 105/55 monk is a very small problem. Ok, say they nerf it. Then what? Everybody will just jump onto the next big thing. There is already an Elementalist UW solo build out there, it's not as effective as the monk, but it works. Running was not big until someone posted a thread on various forums giving details on how to run Lornar's Pass successfully. Suddenly, many Warrior/Monks copied the build and started running services. I personally hope that they don't nerf the build (so they don't upset all the people who like to solo underworld) and create a new system where it is beneficial simply to play in a party. If they kill the 105 monk, everybody will just do the next more profitable thing and everybody will be all over it. Everybody keeps screaming nerf during when something new comes out that is very profitable (Riverside farming, Ettin farming, Drake farming, Running, Griffon farming, now 105 monks). The problem won't ever be solved until the root of the problem is addressed, which is why isn't it worth playing in teams and why solo is always the better way to go.

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 25, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santanus_Perro

You all are whining about absolutely nothing. We have a war, famine, disease and you guys are crying about a well thought out build based on the skills available. I say kudos to the guy who thought this build up. If you don't want to farm, then don't. If you do, then go right ahead. Stop whining and moaning over unimportant issues for pete's sake.

I know, seriously guys WTF we have DISEASE and you are talking about monk builds at The Riverside Inn. You're all ASSHOLES! Have some sympathy. Or disease.

jdwoody · Aug 25, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

The people who keep repeating that ArenaNet intended for this build to exist, pointing at the 1 energy depletion at 17 protection prayers and the existence of the -50 health focus as evidence to support this,

If energy depletion is supposed to be 2 energy at 17, anet could fix that, it's not even a nerf, it's a bug fix.

Whether anet thought of this build in particular ahead of time is irrelevant, they have stressed that people would be able to enjoy GW soloing (check the faq) and it is mentioned many times over the number of skills and skill combinations that are possible and how much fun it is to combine them.

Quote:

I don't think people should linger too long on the word 'exploit'. Check the dictionary for it, there are two sides to the term, I personally use it in the not-so-negative way

People might object because anet uses the term 'exploit' in it's updates to mean cheating. For example:

"This week, as part of our in continuing promise to keep Guild Wars free of hacks, cheats, and other exploits, we closed the accounts of more than 100 users of bots"

"Fixed XP exploit in Augury Rock."

You don't see them using that word when talking about fixing skills or rebalancing.

"Fixed issue with Balthazar's Aura skill, so that when multiple copies of the buff are cast on the same ally, only the most powerful is active."

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 25, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Tank mage. A class that can heal, buff, ressurect and do insane damage is a bit much isnt it? I only have a problem with the smite line...for a line that's in the HEALER class it sure does a lot of damage.

EDIT: Oh, I personally don't care that people are solo farming.

Serpreme · Aug 25, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

uhh the devs put it in the game...made it possible....where does it say "Monks arent allowed to use Protective bond!"

Xeavor · Aug 25, 2005, 09:49 PM // 21:49

"I know, seriously guys WTF we have DISEASE and you are talking about monk builds at The Riverside Inn. You're all ASSHOLES! Have some sympathy. Or disease."

LOL
That has to be one of the most logical and funny comments I've read since this whole lame monk nerf crap began. I really think the devs should NOT nerf the monk build. I've already stated my opinion earlier in another thread, but I have alittle more to add.

I have a ele/mes and ele purist build that can solo things my monk can't, example... flesh golems and majority of other disenchanting eneimes.

I have a necro/mes and necro purist build that can do the same thing, but played alittle differently.

Both of these builds can solo things my monk can only dream of soloing, so ...

Now my point is this, if I shared these builds and made them public, the same old crap would begin with those builds. Lamers crying about something they disagree with is sad enough, but crying to the point to where you want to affect someone elses enjoyment of a game is ....well, I can't think of a word bad enough to discribe people like that. I also keep seeing exploit used to discribe this build...LOL, ummm ok. I've used a few "exploits" in my video game experience and this isn't what I would label one as, though everyone is entitled to their opinions.

If this is really what people think of as an exploit, then the game is full of exploits and the devs need to pull it off the shelves and rethink and start from scratch. From this little community moan I think I see the way the GW future is headed. Its trend haters...lol, thats basicly what it is. But whats soo odd is that when warriors with fire swords was the big thing, everyone wasn't like OMG nerrrrfffff....or when the chaos axes became a big thing...again, didn't see anyone screaming nerf when everyone and their brother had one. So, with the GREAT monk build public, and its becoming trend-e everyone is crying about it.....why? Its no different than the above examples I gave, its a trend, something people find different and so they flock to it for a while.

I've used this build for ...well since it first was shared in clan forums, and guess what. I've moved on...I now have 2 other builds I use to do other farming of other areas, and the monk gets used perhaps 45% of the time...depending on my mood. So, just let it go, people will tire of the monk build, and look for new personal builds to farm with, its a good way for people to see how to think. To see what is needed to go solo farming, think of it as a learning experience, because I think that the majority of people will in time come up with equally affective builds. True that some may stick with what works and whats the trend. But, the trend "setters" will live on, so, if your going to nerf something, either make the game more rewarding for groups, or scream nerf the trend setters.

I'm sure the person who orginally shared this build was not trying to cause this in the GW community, if anything he is like me and other people in guild wars, trying to help fellow gw players. So, if they nerf this build, note to yourselves, don't release anymore solo builds to the lame and close minded populace, they just aren't ready for it. I'll keep my soloing builds private, I suggest the rest of you do the same, because apparently sharing and people liking what is shared, just isn't what the gw community is all about.

Squizzard45 · Aug 25, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

Oh, Squizzard, if you want to farm something other than UW with a 105/55 monk build, try hydras. They're high-level and drop ok stuff, and a 105/55 monk can take out an army of them with no worries. My warrior, he can do maybe 5 ^_^

Hydras are such noobs

HHmmmm...ok Maybe I'll give that a shot. And btw, I'm not trying to refute all your points or anything like that; just tryin to put in my 2 cents. I do agree with some of what you have to say about the build

zehly · Aug 25, 2005, 10:05 PM // 22:05

All that comes to mind right now is... god damn, you people are mean. It's a fricken game for crying out loud. Get over it.

If A.Net feels it's necessary to fix it, then live with it. If they don't, live with it.

No one complained in D2 about Hammerdins being overpowerful and exploiting. Nor did my Baal run teams complain about me having a level 46 hammer or something like that.

Sheesh.

Xeavor · Aug 25, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

.....well i didn't know about it....since i do....NERF IT!!!!! LOL just j/k

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 25, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Xeavor:
I think that part of the problem with this 105/55 monk build is not that it's a solo monk farming build, but specifically the *area* where this monk can solo. It is the Underworld, which is *currently* (pre-update) one of the few places where ascended characters can play PVE and not get bored to tears.

My personal problem with it has nothing to do with it being an easy way to get $, to be honest. I think that there are other, much more efficient and ruthless ways of getting wealthy in Guild Wars, and I prefer to use those for that purpose. The thing is, I like to explore UW with a full party of 8 people. I don't even mind not having a monk!! However, everyone else does mind, and so as a result getting a PUG to enter UW (and especially one that does not stink) is more difficult than it should be.

I think the biggest impact of this solo build is what it has had on team structure at ToA. Balanced, "ideal" teams are really hard to put together because monks don't really have a good enough reason to join teams.

Sure, as a warrior/elementalist, I have no reason to team up with anyone when I do desert or perdition rock farming. However, people aren't exactly itching to go partying at those areas. They're either there to get to the next mission, or they're looking for skill captures. UW and FoW are really the only areas I can think of that warrant, and have, high traffic from high-level players who want to enter a party.

Xeavor · Aug 25, 2005, 10:09 PM // 22:09

http://pc.ign.com/articles/644/644916p1.html

there you go, spirits and recharges to divine boon and healing have been added to kill the unprotective bond monk build....the clocks ticking, wonder whats next.

Xeavor · Aug 25, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

Xeavor:
I think that part of the problem with this 105/55 monk build is not that it's a solo monk farming build, but specifically the *area* where this monk can solo. It is the Underworld, which is *currently* (pre-update) one of the few places where ascended characters can play PVE and not get bored to tears.

My personal problem with it has nothing to do with it being an easy way to get $, to be honest. I think that there are other, much more efficient and ruthless ways of getting wealthy in Guild Wars, and I prefer to use those for that purpose. The thing is, I like to explore UW with a full party of 8 people. I don't even mind not having a monk!! However, everyone else does mind, and so as a result getting a PUG to enter UW (and especially one that does not stink) is more difficult than it should be.

I think the biggest impact of this solo build is what it has had on team structure at ToA. Balanced, "ideal" teams are really hard to put together because monks don't really have a good enough reason to join teams.

Sure, as a warrior/elementalist, I have no reason to team up with anyone when I do desert or perdition rock farming. However, people aren't exactly itching to go partying at those areas. They're either there to get to the next mission, or they're looking for skill captures. UW and FoW are really the only areas I can think of that warrant, and have, high traffic from high-level players who want to enter a party.

True, and for the most part I agree with what you just said, but I disagree with nerfing a build of any sort. Change the area and add new enemies that disenchant, its a easy enough fix. If the UW is your only concern, then surely you see that nerfing an entire build instead of just changing the area being farmed is a bit overkill.

Angelus Angel · Aug 25, 2005, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Why do monks luv to solo.. Simple because most players seem to think that monks have a infinite supply of energy.. And when the said players leeroy on a mission and the monk can not keep up with mass amounts of healing guess what happens.. THEY BLAME THE MONK..
So to all the monks out there you want to solo UW and not have to deal with the BS you go and do it...

Weezer_Blue · Aug 25, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

This is not an "exploit". You are using a skill the exactly way it was designed, as well as superior runes, the way they were designed. It is a clever use of Protective Bond and dropping your health to 105 or lower. This results in an "invincible" farmer that can be used in areas where there is no interuption, no extreme health degeneration, no enchantment stripping, and so on. What does that mean? Coincidentally, it means that you can solo a bit of the Underworld and come up with some cash. It does not ruin the economy in any way, and it's costly as hell to make this build. 5 superior monk runes will cost you a lot just to start out, and you still have to play it right and tweak it to your liking if you want to cover the costs of your 5 runes, new set of armour, and any skills you had to get.

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 26, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Xeavor: Yes, I do think that changing UW somewhat to make monk soloing much less viable would be the appropriate solution to my problem. I don't see "invincimonk" builds dominating the higher levels of PVP, so really that's all that would be necessary.

However, tweaking Protective Bond to also take 2 energy at level 17 isn't exactly any worse, since UW is pretty much the only thing the 105/55 monk would care about (or so defenders seem to claim), and it's only the 105/55 monk that really needs the current level 17 protective bond.

Anyway, the current state of affairs will change REALLY soon anyway, so this discussion is moot at this point.

Weezer Blue: Don't be so hung up on words like "exploit." It's perfectly acceptable, and not in any way immoral, to "exploit" any sorts of clever skill combinations you find. You don't have to defend people using the 105/55 monk build. It's there for everyone to use. Really, all that we're finding out is that any skill "balance" that ANet achieves can be upset to some degree by players finding combinations the devs did not think of. That's why ANet tweaks skills now and then, to restore balance as best they can. They're gonna do it again in a bit here.

Sayshina · Aug 26, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Either everyone gets to solo, or nobody should be allowed to. I don't really care which one they choose, as I've never been one of the "this game is all about team play" twits. There has never been much team play in PvE, there never will be.

I certainly object to the 105/55 monks. For one thing, they eat up all the runes so that legitimate monks can't get them if they wanted. For another, they clearly violate the "everybody or nobody" rule I mentioned above.

They might not be godly, and there are certainly places and monsters that can decimate them. they are however, the single most powerfull build that has ever hit this game by a long margin. And there have been a lot of builds not nearly as powerfull that have been hit hard by the nerf bat. Anyone here remember when Illus. Weap. ruled?